Hobbes2 wrote: 28485y

It is my personal opinion (mine alone, this is not representative of my institution) that maps should be ranked upon being submitted, to avoid as much drama as possible. I have personally submitted a request to peppy for this change, no response yet. I'll keep you guys informed!

It would be interesting to see a system where every map was ranked, and if it was found to be low in quality (i.e., against the ranked requirements), it would be graveyarded. However, this would cause even more drama as people would start pumping out PP maps like a water from a hose. And if they are graveyarded, the PP earned would have to be refunded, which would cause extreme anger in the community.

Volvo pl0x wrote: 3gg4q

why map when you can just edit the ar of a map and call it yours

-kevincela- wrote: 5la1p

why don't my maps have drama

because they are objectively bad :^))))))

winber1 wrote: 4i6h5j

-kevincela- wrote: 5la1p

why don't my maps have drama

because they are objectively bad :^))))))

ohmygod

all of every of this is pure solid gold with a shining clean surface so shiny it can burn your eyes with the mere reflection of a flashlight

winber1 wrote: 4i6h5j

-kevincela- wrote: 5la1p

why don't my maps have drama

because they are objectively bad :^))))))

but that would mean my maps would be causing drama if they were ranked... maybe that's the reason why it takes me so much time to rank them :thinking:

johnmedina999 wrote: 3r3a6s

Hobbes2 wrote: 28485y

It is my personal opinion (mine alone, this is not representative of my institution) that maps should be ranked upon being submitted, to avoid as much drama as possible. I have personally submitted a request to peppy for this change, no response yet. I'll keep you guys informed!

It would be interesting to see a system where every map was ranked, and if it was found to be low in quality (i.e., against the ranked requirements), it would be graveyarded. However, this would cause even more drama as people would start pumping out PP maps like a water from a hose. And if they are graveyarded, the PP earned would have to be refunded, which would cause extreme anger in the community.

so almost like ripple?

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

ripple

Sorry, I'm not familiar with that game. But if it works for them, I would like to see it in action. Anything where the community s something to a centralized server must have quality control. But the situation Hobbes2 suggested would be absolutely chaotic the way I see it.

johnmedina999 wrote: 3r3a6s

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

ripple

Sorry, I'm not familiar with that game. But if it works for them, I would like to see it in action. Anything where the community s something to a centralized server must have quality control. But the situation Hobbes2 suggested would be absolutely chaotic the way I see it.

It doesn't have quality control. I quit after chugging down a couple 4k 7 star maps down my throat, giving me 500pp or so each. No point in playing for numbers after that.

No, the thing is every map is good it's hard to subjectively quantify a map as good or bad. For example, this map has its own good qualities and the current ranking system unfortunately does not give it an opportunity. An autoranking system would do just that and would really enhance this games' competitive attributes. This also solves the problem of pp maps, as pp becoming irrelevant is a good way to disincentivize pp mapping.

Hobbes2 wrote: 28485y

No, the thing is every map is good it's hard to subjectively quantify a map as good or bad. For example, this map has its own good qualities and the current ranking system unfortunately does not give it an opportunity. An autoranking system would do just that and would really enhance this games' competitive attributes. This also solves the problem of pp maps, as pp becoming irrelevant is a good way to disincentivize pp mapping.

because ranking centipede is a good idea

johnmedina999 wrote: 3r3a6s

Stefan wrote: 5nd6l

Well, it really doesn't. Bad maps are getting ranked anyways so that shouldn't hesitate you to get something ranked.

If everyone follows your advice and begins mapping/getting things ranked, 1) there will be a boom in Pending maps which would make ranking a map take even more time than it takes now, and 2) it would make the Ranked status absolutely worthless.

1) literally happened already, in 2012/13. somewhere at this time. and 2) is rather the fact getting maps ranked nothing more but a bad joke for some s. People don't bother to care for these maps but just to get their shit ranked asap, which affects their behaviour.

Stefan wrote: 5nd6l

1) literally happened already, in 2012/13. somewhere at this time. and 2) is rather the fact getting maps ranked nothing more but a bad joke for some s. People don't bother to care for these maps but just to get their shit ranked asap, which affects their behaviour.

Stefan teaching history

t/113949/start=75

can't of more cases

Hobbes2 wrote: 28485y

No, the thing is every map is good it's hard to subjectively quantify a map as good or bad. For example, this map has its own good qualities and the current ranking system unfortunately does not give it an opportunity. An autoranking system would do just that and would really enhance this games' competitive attributes. This also solves the problem of pp maps, as pp becoming irrelevant is a good way to disincentivize pp mapping.

Oh, I thought you were joking when you said that.
Well, if every map is ranked, and PP is useless now, why not just remove ranked all together?
Believe it or not, ranked is a good place to find decent maps quickly. Trying to find a decent map in the graveyard is like trying to find diamonds in the landfill. Yes, there are VERY good maps that don't fit the ranked criteria (look at my favorited beatmap list), but those are just a small percentile buried under a sea of poorly made, half-assed, and improperly timed maps.

Alright, I've been meaning to say this since the thread started, and now would be a good time to say it.

I know I'm just a beginner; for three months I've been playing this game. Being a beginner, I really want to play some of the maps you all create, but the simple fact that I cannot play a 7* map stops me from doing so. Ranked maps require an easy/normal difficulty, so most of those are a godsend to players such as myself. Finding a song that isn't ranked that I can actually can be frustrating sometimes.
Now, I'm not saying graveyarded maps are trash, there are so many that are incredible, like this one, this one, this one, the list goes on and on! However, the way I see it, maps cannot stay Pending or WIP forever; they either get ranked or they don't. 99% of the maps that get graveyarded suck or are simply unplayable, which is why a ranked section is required with strict rules and guidelines (a "necessary evil").

The maps that are incredible and are not ranked tend to explode on their own anyway (yes, I'm looking at you, Evening). But they are not ranked because they are under 5:00 and do not have an easy/normal difficulty. And that alright. It's just by coincidence that PLANET//SHAPER got ranked, for it's 6:00 long. Now, I couldn't tell you myself, but I believe Evening's maps are of a very high quality and even though they aren't ranked are still enjoyable to play. But again, the ranked status is necessary because if there was no ranked status to strive for, no new players would ever play this game and the community would die out due to a lack of playable maps.

/rant

johnmedina999 wrote: 3r3a6s

Hobbes2 wrote: 28485y

No, the thing is every map is good it's hard to subjectively quantify a map as good or bad. For example, this map has its own good qualities and the current ranking system unfortunately does not give it an opportunity. An autoranking system would do just that and would really enhance this games' competitive attributes. This also solves the problem of pp maps, as pp becoming irrelevant is a good way to disincentivize pp mapping.

Oh, I thought you were joking when you said that.
Well, if every map is ranked, and PP is useless now, why not just remove ranked all together?
Believe it or not, ranked is a good place to find decent maps quickly. Trying to find a decent map in the graveyard is like trying to find diamonds in the landfill. Yes, there are VERY good maps that don't fit the ranked criteria (look at my favorited beatmap list), but those are just a small percentile buried under a sea of poorly made, half-assed, and improperly timed maps.

Alright, I've been meaning to say this since the thread started, and now would be a good time to say it.

I know I'm just a beginner; for three months I've been playing this game. Being a beginner, I really want to play some of the maps you all create, but the simple fact that I cannot play a 7* map stops me from doing so. Ranked maps require an easy/normal difficulty, so most of those are a godsend to players such as myself. Finding a song that isn't ranked that I can actually can be frustrating sometimes.
Now, I'm not saying graveyarded maps are trash, there are so many that are incredible, like this one, this one, this one, the list goes on and on! However, the way I see it, maps cannot stay Pending or WIP forever; they either get ranked or they don't. 99% of the maps that get graveyarded suck or are simply unplayable, which is why a ranked section is required with strict rules and guidelines (a "necessary evil").

The maps that are incredible and are not ranked tend to explode on their own anyway (yes, I'm looking at you, Evening). But they are not ranked because they are under 5:00 and do not have an easy/normal difficulty. And that alright. It's just by coincidence that PLANET//SHAPER got ranked, for it's 6:00 long. Now, I couldn't tell you myself, but I believe Evening's maps are of a very high quality and even though they aren't ranked are still enjoyable to play. But again, the ranked status is necessary because if there was no ranked status to strive for, no new players would ever play this game and the community would die out due to a lack of playable maps.

/rant

Honestly, I've gone to the point in which I'm now both playing and mapping for fun. I just can't get behind the wheel of ranking maps anymore as I used to and it makes me depressed. I just want my shantae map to be ranked sometime before I graduate.

5k views holy fxck

mapping is a happy trigger.

I thought we were shitposting

johnmedina999 wrote: 3r3a6s

. But again, the ranked status is necessary because if there was no ranked status to strive for, no new players would ever play this game and the community would die out due to a lack of playable maps.

Sad truth is that it's necessary because of the size of the community. The size of the community makes it hard to pick out good maps otherwise due new shit maps flooding in every second.


The minimum time for a map to have a single difficulty is 5 minutes. There will never be a sufficient amount of >7* maps between than 2 and 5 minutes due to the insane time that needs to be put in bridging the difficulty gap with a spread. As a result DT shit is what ET players depend on now. If you define quality by how many players the mapset is for, props to you for limiting ranked maps to what is reasonable to waste time on. If you define quality by how good a difficulty is, then what is this rule? I hear a single top tier difficulty in o2jam took some 2-3 years to make (>12 star). This is insane. You want a 2*, 4*, 6*, 8*,... I'd just have it loved. No need to rank it. It's just a number after all.

/insanity
/rant

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

johnmedina999 wrote: 3r3a6s

. But again, the ranked status is necessary because if there was no ranked status to strive for, no new players would ever play this game and the community would die out due to a lack of playable maps.

Sad truth is that it's necessary because of the size of the community. The size of the community makes it hard to pick out good maps otherwise due new shit maps flooding in every second.


The minimum time for a map to have a single difficulty is 5 minutes. There will never be a sufficient amount of >7* maps between than 2 and 5 minutes due to the insane time that needs to be put in bridging the difficulty gap with a spread. As a result DT shit is what ET players depend on now. If you define quality by how many players the mapset is for, props to you for limiting ranked maps to what is reasonable to waste time on. If you define quality by how good a difficulty is, then what is this rule? I hear a single top tier difficulty in o2jam took some 2-3 years to make (>12 star). This is insane. You want a 2*, 4*, 6*, 8*,... I'd just have it loved. No need to rank it. It's just a number after all.

/insanity
/rant

By making it so that people are allowed to make single high diff maps, means that there will be less easy maps available for new comers. And obviously there are more new comers than people who are good at the game.

I propose maybe the amount of diff needed should be highestdiff/2 rounded downwards. In which one of the difficulty should be 2 star or less. This way there won't be a lack of easy maps, and highest diff doesn't require so much effort

Blitzfrog wrote: 2a3s

By making it so that people are allowed to make single high diff maps, means that there will be less easy maps available for new comers. And obviously there are more new comers than people who are good at the game.

This argument again. Top tier players are forced to their own niche communities as we see with Stepmania because this community tries to appeal to all. This is hindering progression. osu!mania will never see enough maps which push the limits and it will never appeal to top tier players. There needs to be a rule a allowing players who know what they are doing to map higher level stuff while not worrying about anything else.

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

This argument again. Top tier players are forced to their own niche communities as we see with Stepmania because this community tries to appeal to all. This is hindering progression. osu!mania will never see enough maps which push the limits and it will never appeal to top tier players. There needs to be a rule a allowing players who know what they are doing to map higher level stuff while not worrying about anything else.

The higher level maps all fall under "graveyard". You yourself say that ranked status does not matter:

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

No need to rank it. It's just a number after all.

What is your point? Ranked maps require a full spread because that's the first thing new players see when they click on the "Beatmaps" button on the top of the page. If you want to skip making a full spread, that's fine, no one is judging you on that.

johnmedina999 wrote: 3r3a6s

What is your point?

I think I kinda made my point in this post. Get people to like your map for what it is. Anything more than that is just pointless bashing at ranking criteria.

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

Get people to like your map for what it is.

Sounds good to me.

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

Blitzfrog wrote: 2a3s

By making it so that people are allowed to make single high diff maps, means that there will be less easy maps available for new comers. And obviously there are more new comers than people who are good at the game.

This argument again. Top tier players are forced to their own niche communities as we see with Stepmania because this community tries to appeal to all. This is hindering progression. osu!mania will never see enough maps which push the limits and it will never appeal to top tier players. There needs to be a rule a allowing players who know what they are doing to map higher level stuff while not worrying about anything else.

If you appeal to new players though, there will be a larger player base. The larger the player base, the more mappers, therefore higher chance of mapping higher level stuff. Also I proposed something for a reason

non mappers arguing about mappers ahahahha

winber1 wrote: 4i6h5j

non mappers arguing about mappers ahahahha

is there a term for both, like inactive but active

idk where the fuck i fit in this world

oh wait, im gay

You mean to tell me somebody actually cares about editor stuff?

Bakari wrote: 5g405f

You mean to tell me somebody actually cares about editor stuff?

My crippling depression tells me yes

We don't need any more diffs for bad players because there are enough already. Thousands. And if we stopped making it a requirement, people would still map them because they are easy to map and mappers naturally map what the community plays. Easy diffs don't fit in with a lot of songs and have to be extremely undermapped, and make mapping and ranking a lot more tedious. So does this idea of 'difficulty spread' in which maps have to cater to every imaginable skill level for unknown reasons. Rather than having a philosophy of "every player deserves to play every song regardless of skill level"' (which is undermined by the fact that when you go over 5 minutes you don't need to do this anymore), having a skill barrier for certain songs might actually encourage people to get better. The game is not sustained by casual players, and making everything easy for casual players is not how you encourage them to play more.

haha i love new mappers they think they asre good lol. they like " omg my map thsio tthe FUCKING best FUCK e shiowaoifAWHOEPawehiop awehiopfhaweiopphioawefhiopawehopiawefhiopawefhioawefhioawefwe"

MAPPING DRAMA NATION NOW ALMOST AT 6K VIEWS

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

We don't need any more diffs for bad players because there are enough already. Thousands. And if we stopped making it a requirement, people would still map them because they are easy to map and mappers naturally map what the community plays. Easy diffs don't fit in with a lot of songs and have to be extremely undermapped, and make mapping and ranking a lot more tedious. So does this idea of 'difficulty spread' in which maps have to cater to every imaginable skill level for unknown reasons. Rather than having a philosophy of "every player deserves to play every song regardless of skill level"' (which is undermined by the fact that when you go over 5 minutes you don't need to do this anymore), having a skill barrier for certain songs might actually encourage people to get better. The game is not sustained by casual players, and making everything easy for casual players is not how you encourage them to play more.

yeah man let me make my fuckign 6* non-marathon diffs and rank them in peace god fuck


the problems tands when that becomes the new norm and then you're left with the only "easy" maps being the ones made on purpose 5-10% of the time, tops, and if you're a new player you have like 5-10% of the choice as you would now


hell maybe some hybrid system of "after 3 minutes of drain time, an Easy/Normal is no longer needed, after 4 minutes, a Normal/Hard is no longer needed" would work but fuck that


nothing will change around here anyway



prove me wrong ephemeral pls i'd love to be proven wrong, as it is fuck mapping, insane amounts of effort for literally next to no benefit other than getting potential fanboi circlejerking

I see lazy people are still crying over not wanting to cater to a wider audience with their maps. People never change.

That's not really a problem. There will always be maps for beginners to play, and these maps will continue to be mapped. We have to take into how easy easy and normals actually are. It would take what, a couple of days for someone who is playing seriously to sur them and move on to hards? I that I basically played easy and normals on Charles's beatmap Liquid, and since then I have pretty much never played easies or normals again. I can confidently say that 90%+ of plays on easies are done by SS farmers and the like, rather than people whose skill level is appropriately matched to those difficulties. So what is the necessity? Is it essential to have every single song available for beginners of a week or two to play? I don't think so.

I'm not saying that there should be a drop in quality in ranked beatmaps. But I don't think enforcing the arbitrary standards of the beatmap spreads make for quality mapsets. I.e, you map is 2 seconds too short, therefore you need to make 2 more difficulties. Or 'omg, your mapset has a gap of 0.2* too high, into the graveyard your mapset goes'. I view maps as something like works of art, and you don't get great works of art by excessive standardisation or forcing an artist to churn out a lot of uninspired work. If a mapper creates an amazing map at a certain star rating, is it a good thing to make him shoehorn in a bunch more difficulties just to get the one map he wants ranked? You can claim that these sort of regulations create higher quality, but the quality you're talking about is more akin to the quality of a factory product, rather than of great and unique creations.

So what I would suggest is have more of a loose fitting set of guidelines regarding difficulty spreads. Because blanket rules like this are rarely a good idea, maps can always be judged on a case-by-case basis. For example, a tv size anime map wouldn't be able to get away without a full spread. But something like the Big Black for example, really doesn't need one.

Garven wrote: 2k1v16

I see lazy people are still crying over not wanting to cater to a wider audience with their maps. People never change.

Cater to a wider audience, also known as dumb down. It's good that certain niches can be filled by certain maps, not everything has to be for everyone.

Well making Easies and Normals isn't even that hard. The only real hard part is rhythm since there's not really that much freedom elsewhere. If you can make a 6 star map you should probably be able to spend an hour making the Easy and Normal too.

I do agree that some songs really suck to make E/N's for because of the severe undermapping required, but I don't really know the solution to that or if there even really has to be one.

Hobbes2 wrote: 28485y

Well making Easies and Normals isn't even that hard. The only real hard part is rhythm since there's not really that much freedom elsewhere. If you can make a 6 star map you should probably be able to spend an hour making the Easy and Normal too.

I do agree that some songs really suck to make E/N's for because of the severe undermapping required, but I don't really know the solution to that or if there even really has to be one.

there doesn't have to be a solution. Undermapping is good for easy maps, actually.

The sort of songs that warrant a 6* difficulty often have more complex rhythms and when you map those in a normal difficulty, new players probably couldn't keep up with that. More complicated rhythms shouldn't be used too much in very easy maps, they should be introduced later after the lew player mastered the very basics of the game. Playing easy and normal difficulties is basically like playing and extended tutorial of the game anyway, until you move on to hard maps.



Mapping drama is always hilarious to see. Looking at some of Shiirn's beatmap-threads, people were fighting over things that were basically a matter of taste. Thinking back, at some point it was like you saw one side scream ''i like red!!'' and the other side screaming ''i like blue!!!'', at the top of their lungs. Good times. Please, more of that!!

Easies and normals are all the same pretty much, players can get the same experience by playing any of them. Play one and you've played them all. And just like I wouldn't like a 6* difficulty being forced on Dango Daikazoku, I don't think it's necessary to force a map that doesn't fit the song at all on more intense songs. It's not the biggest issue about mapping, but still no reason to force people to make easies on every map even if it doesn't fit.

Railey2 wrote: 6a2u27

The sort of songs that warrant a 6* difficulty often have more complex rhythms and when you map those in a normal difficulty, new players probably couldn't keep up with that. More complicated rhythms shouldn't be used too much in very easy maps, they should be introduced later after the new player mastered the very basics of the game. Playing easy and normal difficulties is basically like playing and extended tutorial of the game anyway, until you move on to hard maps

not everyone plays at the same pace, hence why i like making easy difficulties easier than 1.3* some people aren't going to get good within 9 hours, or 8 days, or 10 weeks, others just have the skill/experience almost right away

there doesn't have to be a solution. Undermapping is good for easy maps, actually.

Yeah, I know, my point was the same as yours; some songs have rhythms that are pretty challlenging to make Easies and Normals out of, and requiring maps to have those diffs can be frustrating. But my personal opinion is that mappers are just gonna have to suck it up and make em.

new maps suck

Railey2 wrote: 6a2u27

The sort of songs that warrant a 6* difficulty often have more complex rhythms and when you map those in a normal difficulty, new players probably couldn't keep up with that. More complicated rhythms shouldn't be used too much in very easy maps, they should be introduced later after the lew player mastered the very basics of the game. Playing easy and normal difficulties is basically like playing and extended tutorial of the game anyway, until you move on to hard maps!

The main reason I am against under mapping is it breaks me to see something like this severely under mapped to the point it barely creates that feel the music give off. Energy! Power! Excitement! Being ET as fuck! All that lost when you have slow sliders at AR 5. Create E/N difficulties for reasonable songs like vocals or calming piano songs, not high BPM *core.

Hobbes2 wrote: 28485y

But my personal opinion is that mappers are just gonna have to suck it up and make em.

<insert more bashing at the ranking criteria>

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

Easies and normals are all the same pretty much... Play one and you've played them all

*cough* monstrata*cough*

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

We don't need any more diffs for bad players because there are enough already. Thousands. And if we stopped making it a requirement, people would still map them because they are easy to map and mappers naturally map what the community plays. Easy diffs don't fit in with a lot of songs and have to be extremely undermapped, and make mapping and ranking a lot more tedious. So does this idea of 'difficulty spread' in which maps have to cater to every imaginable skill level for unknown reasons. Rather than having a philosophy of "every player deserves to play every song regardless of skill level"' (which is undermined by the fact that when you go over 5 minutes you don't need to do this anymore), having a skill barrier for certain songs might actually encourage people to get better. The game is not sustained by casual players, and making everything easy for casual players is not how you encourage them to play more.

Quality-wise, this is what I expect to read from Off-Topic. Thanks for the good laugh.

why do you have an here

Stefan wrote: 5nd6l

Quality-wise, this is what I expect to read from Off-Topic. Thanks for the good laugh.

He is somewhat right though. I when Talent Shredder came out and one of my goal was ing it, giving me motivation to play.

Only popular stuff need potato difficulties, since the majority of potatoes will only play popular potato songs. For someone who isn't a potato, even hards are manageable if not instantly, but within a few days, but those kinds of players do not care much about potato stuff anyway and potatoes do not really care much about non-potato stuff, such as non-popular, non-potato songs. Potatoes want One Potato Man and Potato Art Online songs, maybe some Potato City and Fainted Potato, so that Normiepotatoes won't complain about all the 2d underage girls we have here.

I understand nothing what you're trying to explain me but potatoes.

he's low-key calling you an incapable potato of a

Ah, thanks for translating.

winber1 wrote: 4i6h5j

he's low-key calling you an incapable potato of a

That is wrong. Stefan is a cool mod, don't bully! how many times have you silenced me though?

On the other hand, I clearly expressed the needs of >very< casual players, that being popular songs and how they do not care much about anything else. For that reason, not all maps need bottom tier difficulties, especially not two of them, as even literal potatoes can play easy difficulties. With these points, I tried to defend B1rd's post. Is everything clear now? I hope I won't be accused of calling Ephemeral a poopy birdie butt this time around. That would be awkward and just not true.

B1rd you're arguing for the sake of arguing

Oh wait that's what mapping drama is supposed to be my bad

N0thingSpecial wrote: 3t6c4t

B1rd you're arguing for the sake of arguing

it's a real honor to meet you sherlock, i loved ur books

N0thingSpecial wrote: 3t6c4t

B1rd you're arguing for the sake of arguing

Oh wait that's what mapping drama is supposed to be my bad

No.

I just try and convey my point about things I have thought for years.

Ephemeral wrote: 4k296t

N0thingSpecial wrote: 3t6c4t

B1rd you're arguing for the sake of arguing

it's a real honor to meet you sherlock, i loved ur books

Dafuq u just say u lil bitch, just because you have your fancy yellow name u think u can talk shit to me, fite me and my katana collection

:^)-type is no match for my impeccable candour

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

Garven wrote: 2k1v16

I see lazy people are still crying over not wanting to cater to a wider audience with their maps. People never change.

Cater to a wider audience, also known as dumb down. It's good that certain niches can be filled by certain maps, not everything has to be for everyone.

Adding easier difficulties isn't dumbing down a mapset. Also this is a game, so the ranked section isn't really made for art projects and the ranking criteria was designed around that.

So if you want your mapset to the ranked group, meet the established criteria. If you want to show off your art project, it's fine to leave it in the other map sections. People can still and experience it.

Garven wrote: 2k1v16

If you want to show off your art project

"art project" is so demeaning compared to "work of art". It's almost offensive

Art is just an analogy. What I'm really talking about is maps that are good for a variety of reasons, not just how 'artistic' they are. What you are doing is making a distinguishment between good mapsets, and mapsets that are 'acceptable' to be ranked. Like I was saying, you seem to prefer mapsets that seem to come off of a factory line. It's not that mappers are being 'lazy', it's the simple fact that resources aren't infinite, and heaping a bunch of unnecessary work that mappers have to do to get their mapset ranked will inevitably reduce the amount of truly good mapsets.

So in the end, you are dumbing down the game by forcing the redistribution of time and effort onto making easy difficulties. You have yet to justify why every single mapset needs to have low difficulties. And I have already at length explained why this is unnecessary. And in my mind, tacking on easy difficulties reduces the appeal of naturally hard songs and mapsets. Yes this is a game, but what games allow you to fight super easy versions of the final boss at stage one? You can play games on easy mode or hard mode, and in osu! there are mods that emulate this by increasing or decreasing difficulty. In games there are easy stages and hard stages, and is osu! there are easy and slow songs, and fast intense songs. Slow songs don't need to be hard, and hard songs don't need to be easy.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be easy maps, or that mappers should be able to get away with ranking a mapset with one or two 6* diffs in a tv-size anime map. I'm saying that hard mapsets should be able to stay hard, and easy ones can stay easy. We don't need to tack on undermapped maps that don't follow the music and aren't very good. Instead, mapsets should be ranked based on their own quality, as judged by humans, rather than following a rigid and uncompromising set of rules that are more detrimental than not.

Also, concerning unranked maps: if we're being real, one of the biggest driving forces for mappers to map is to have their maps get attention and be played. For the most part, they don't get this in the unranked section. It'd be like an artist having to keep their pictures in a dark basement instead of being previewed at an art gallery. And don't get on to me about the loved section, the loved section is more of challenge maps, gimmicky maps etc., rather than maps that deserve to be ranked.

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

Art is just an analogy. What I'm really talking about is maps that are good for a variety of reasons, not just how 'artistic' they are. What you are doing is making a distinguishment between good mapsets, and mapsets that are 'acceptable' to be ranked. Like I was saying, You seem to prefer mapsets that seem to come off of a factory line. It's not that mappers are being 'lazy', it's the simple fact that resources aren't infinite, and heaping a bunch of unnecessary work that mappers have to do to get their mapset ranked will inevitably reduce the amount of truly good mapsets.

So in the end, you are dumbing down the game by forcing the redistribution of time and effort onto making easy difficulties. You have yet to justify why every single mapset Needs to have low difficulties. And I have already at length explained why this is unnecessary. And in my mind, tacking on easy difficulties reduces the appeal of naturally hard songs and mapsets. Yes this is a game, but what games allow you to fight super easy versions of the final boss at stage one? You can play games on easy mode or hard mode, and in osu! there are mods that emulate this by increasing or decreasing difficulty. In games there are easy stages and hard stages, and is osu! there are easy and slow songs, and fast intense songs. Slow songs don't need to be hard, and hard songs don't need to be easy.

So, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be easy maps, or that mappers should be able to get away with ranking a mapset with one or two 6* diffs in a tv-size anime map. I'm saying that hard mapsets should be ableTo stay hard, and easy ones can stay easy. We don't need to tack on undermapped maps that don't follow the music and aren't very good. Instead, mapsets should be ranked based on their own quality, as judged by humans, rather than following a rigid and uncompromising set of rules that do more harm than good.

Also, Concerning unranked maps: if we're being real, one of the biggest driving forces for mappers to map is to have their maps get attention and be played. For tHe most part, they don't get this in the unranked section. It'd be like an artIst having to keep their pictures in a dark basement instead of being previewed at an art gaLLery. And don't get on to me about the loved section, the loved section is more of challenge maps, gimmicky maps etc., rather than maps that deserve to be ranked.

This is OT, not Parliament,Flap your wings and just cchhhiiilllll

If you don't have anything of value to say, don't say anything at all. I don't need you commenting every time I say something serious.

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

If you don't have anything of value to say, don't say anything at all. I don't need you commenting every time I say something serious.

Ahh ok

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

Yes this is a game, but what games allow you to fight super easy versions of the final boss at stage one?

Virtually every single rhythm game ever.



The full spread emulates other rhythm games to appeal to people coming in from other games.

EDIT: Here's the Challenge chart for comparison.

B1rd if every mapper has your mindset I think we won't have as many great mapsets ranked. The mapper's intention is give the song exposure and give the community their interpretation of a song in the form of circles and sliders, presumably we would want to give our best for rank, so why only map one difficulty that would only fit a certain people at a certain skill level? Why can't we just do it for the song? Why can't we just do it for the community? Like I don't know if you've experienced this, but when I started playing osu! I tried to find an easier map to a song that has only one difficulty, and there was non cause of the marathon thing, and no one bothered to map a hard diff for it, so I had to forget about this one song which I really like, improve as a player then enjoy the song and the map for what it is later. the process itself was satisfying but why can't the process be me finding out this 5 minutes long song has a full spread, and as I improve I get to enjoy and more accurate interpretation of the song?

not trying to justify the current ranking criteria for mapping spread (tagent but seriously song length for ranking as marathon maps should vary with BPM as higher bpm has more objects it's just common sense), but from a perspective of a mapper that actually gives a shit about the community this spread thing wouldn't be an actual problem. I personally think of it like this "I like this song very much and I think the community should enjoy this, I will map this to cater to as much people as possible while staying true to the song"

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

For the most part, they don't get this in the unranked section.

??

Good maps do get attention, see the number of favorites or being in the Loved section
Bad maps do not get attention and stays unknown.


I am unsure where did you pull that off.

Garven wrote: 2k1v16

If you want to show off your art project, it's fine to leave it in the other map sections. People can still and experience it.

So what you're saying is to leave your art projects in another map, like so p/3575250 xD.

But yeah, find the target niche for your art project and just the map to them. They're probably the ones who will give you the praise you want (In short, I bother Garven about my art projects). Ranking rarely gives you much more than a public scoreboard, and an easier way to your map.

are you really creating mapping drama in the thread that's supposed to list out mapping dramas

hello i think you're missing the point

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

If you don't have anything of value to say, don't say anything at all.

If only you practiced what you preach

Okorin wrote: 351eu

are you really creating mapping drama in the thread that's supposed to list out mapping dramas

hello i think you're missing the point

No,no this is perfect. It's what OT is truly about

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

Okorin wrote: 351eu

are you really creating mapping drama in the thread that's supposed to list out mapping dramas

hello i think you're missing the point

No,no this is perfect. It's what OT is truly about

it's so perfect i even stump people

wait..

alright forgot that ot has no point, carry on

So even QAT browse this sick forum at times

sometimes it's fun to get dirty


also b1rd is fucking nuts, i personally feel having lower diffs is great as a requirement but can get weird when you have to significantly change what the music is doing to cater to a weaker playerbase (but this is a problem mostly unique to the weird-ass shit you occasionally see like neurofunk and breakcore)

Shiirn wrote: 234850

sometimes it's fun to get dirty

Especially with kids
mud fights yeah

Get in the van and I'll show you real fun

report: N0thingSpecial

reason: HES NOTHING SPECIAL

I am hoping moddingV2 will be interesting enough for me to get on the modding train for a longer time. I did a modding queue before, but I started to care less and less. It's not that it was too much work. Not that it was too time consuming; I could knock off 3 maps of the queue in an hour. It's just that it became to repeatative. It was starting to be a chore. Go into the thread, pick a map, a map, play the map, judge the map, go into editor, fix the map, post the fix on the forums, rinse, and repeat. This is why I accept mod requests by chat only now. At least I can shake it up by talking to people this way, hopefully more than just about modding, and not just receive a kudoso, "thanks", reasons they are not applying my mod, and/or nothing at all.

Also a lot less people are willing to do modding via chat, which takes the load off me, but unfortunately it's far less than I thought.

Anxient wrote: 44g60

report: N0thingSpecial

reason: HES NOTHING SPECIAL

I LITERALLY DIED

Okorin wrote: 351eu

are you really creating mapping drama in the thread that's supposed to list out mapping dramas

hello i think you're missing the point

time to link this thread in the opening post.

Mapping dramaception

not really a follower of osu drama but im surprised this one's not on the list or is it? i that one had like a meteor-like impact back then

it is now

on topic, close to it

t/475012/start=0

Saturnalize wrote: u3757

on topic, close to it

t/475012/start=0

translation of him being angry over this dq

"waaaa i wanted this rank, oh it got dq'd, fuck you all im quitting, cya next xmas haha"

when it literally is just a simple fix of maybe a difficulty added between hard and normal and the last two diffs are overmapped

i rated that map a 0

ColdTooth wrote: 1g2nr

Saturnalize wrote: u3757

on topic, close to it

t/475012/start=0

translation of him being angry over this dq

"waaaa i wanted this rank, oh it got dq'd, fuck you all im quitting, cya next xmas haha"

when it literally is just a simple fix of maybe a difficulty added between hard and normal and the last two diffs are overmapped

i rated that map a 0

very true

I hate that kind of "mapper" who can't even make a proper diff spread but whines about DQ and pretend that it's not his fault, attentionwhoring every possible "fanboy" to spam *aww poor you hope it gets requalified soon* on their map thread

Saturnalize wrote: u3757

on topic, close to it

t/475012/start=0

8 difficulties... each 4 minutes long... complaints about spread...

I know we need maps for novices, like said before, but mapping out 32 minutes total and having said to go add another 4 minutes that is between normal and hard would be like beating a that person's legs with a hammer because that person was 2 inches out of single file.

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

Saturnalize wrote: u3757

on topic, close to it

t/475012/start=0

8 difficulties... each 4 minutes long... complaints about spread...

I know we need maps for novices, like said before, but mapping out 32 minutes total and having said to go add another 4 minutes that is between normal and hard would be like beating a that person's legs with a hammer because that person was 2 inches out of single file.

Tfw you had to run 5000 cus your clothes were sticking out slightly

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

Saturnalize wrote: u3757

on topic, close to it

t/475012/start=0

8 difficulties... each 4 minutes long... complaints about spread...

I know we need maps for novices, like said before, but mapping out 32 minutes total and having said to go add another 4 minutes that is between normal and hard would be like beating a that person's legs with a hammer because that person was 2 inches out of single file.

They're free to remove at least two difficulties, up to five. We don't need dozen of Expert Difficulties either, where only a small number of s can play them properly. typical mapper shit

Stefan wrote: 5nd6l

They're free to remove at least two difficulties, up to five. We don't need dozen of Expert Difficulties either, where only a small number of s can play them properly. typical mapper shit

The only agreeable statement so far related to the recent link.

Also
effort to make shithard map =/= effort to make evenly distributed map

But
effort to make shithard map < effort to make evenly distributed map

I appreciate one who make ENHIX mapset rather than NHIXXXXXX
this is why we have more drama every year

Which feels soooooooo goooood

Stefan wrote: 5nd6l

Tell me, genius, how does having a lot of extra diffs negatively impact a mapset? Are you worried your precious casual players won't be able to find the easy diffs if there are too many?

I Mr. Color saying that mapsets should only have one map of each difficulty. Typical mod behaviour, they love enforcing completely pointless rules, probably just to be an annoyance.

Saturnalize wrote: u3757

I appreciate one who make ENHIX mapset rather than NHIXXXXXX
this is why we have more drama every year

Actually I second this motion. I would have not done more diffs than required to avoid the pointless work if I needed to remove a diff or shift the spread around. If I wanted to make a specific diff and rank it, I would need to make a spread up until that diff and be done with it.

Though personally I would care more about the quality of that single diff I want to make than the rest of the mapset, but that's just me.


Uhhh ehhh what I meant to say... it's the mapper's mapset. The mapper wants to cater towards more pro players. So let be it. Jeez, it's not like the extra X diffs make them magically worse, right?

p/5794052

Was wondering when somebody will attempt to rank plagiarism

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

https://osu-ppy-sh.jeuxcrack.net/forum/p/5794052

Was wondering when somebody will attempt to rank plagiarism

I'm starting to think about quitting from this game again because the community isn't what I thought it was anymore. Everyone isn't being nice to one another, and they're all bashing at each other, either because of "competition" or their rudeness.

There's a reason why I stopped playing back in early 2015, mapping and playing jumped in difficulty, and school hitting me on one end of the perspective wasn't really helping me either. I've been having extreme difficulties trying to rank a map after my last map, which was back in late 2014. Sure, I've had a few gds in between that and today, like Gero's last christmas a few months ago, but I want to try and rank a map myself. Is it maybe I'm not finding the right people or does noone like my mapping style. I don't know this.

But enough of that small rant, this has nothing to do about me.

Saturnalize wrote: u3757

Stefan wrote: 5nd6l

They're free to remove at least two difficulties, up to five. We don't need dozen of Expert Difficulties either, where only a small number of s can play them properly. typical mapper shit

The only agreeable statement so far related to the recent link.

Also
effort to make shithard map =/= effort to make evenly distributed map

But
effort to make shithard map < effort to make evenly distributed map

I appreciate one who make ENHIX mapset rather than NHIXXXXXX
this is why we have more drama every year

Which feels soooooooo goooood

Yeah right here. I third this motion, as it is so fucking annoying to see a normal difficulty at 1.94*, a hard around 3*, an insane around 4.7* and then millions of expert difficulties over 6* that not a lot of people can play. That's cool that people love to map these, but you have to have fucking diversity. And I've been seeing so many shitmaps in the past 2 years that it's starting to make me think more about our community. We can't just forgot quality.

Saturnalize wrote: u3757

ColdTooth wrote: 1g2nr

translation of him being angry over this dq

"waaaa i wanted this rank, oh it got dq'd, fuck you all im quitting, cya next xmas haha"

when it literally is just a simple fix of maybe a difficulty added between hard and normal and the last two diffs are overmapped

i rated that map a 0

very true

I hate that kind of "mapper" who can't even make a proper diff spread but whines about DQ and pretend that it's not his fault, attentionwhoring every possible "fanboy" to spam *aww poor you hope it gets requalified soon* on their map thread

I don't know anything about fanboys because out of 3 maps and a few gds, I have none lol. I just map and play for fun. But yeah, it's like everyone has their favorite mapper, and whenever they see the map dq'd, they're all like "please requalify this! this is the best map!" on every one of their maps. If this is how people rank their maps, then I guess I'm not getting any map ranked in the future.

I went a little too serious in off-topic, but this thread is ok for that.

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

I Mr. Color saying that mapsets should only have one map of each difficulty. Typical mod behaviour, they love enforcing completely pointless rules, probably just to be an annoyance.

Especially because s have impact on the ranking system.

I never said they did. Though there are probably people who do have an impact that are like that. And on the other side, there are probably bad mappers who try and get undeserving mapsets ranked. There is always going to be drama in mapping. And that is probably necessary, as there will always be conflict between the mappers and the QAT, as one side seeks to tighten standards on mapping and the other side seeks to change or loosen them. I am more sympathetic to the mappers' side, as I think there are a lot of restrictions on mapping that are unnecessary and detrimental.

Anyway, about mapping drama: are the memes legit and did Monstrata actually accuse Kroytz of copying his map? Now that would be funny if that were the case.

Guys I think it's time to

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

as one side seeks to tighten standards on mapping and the other side seeks to change or loosen them.

lol what where are you pulling that from

Blitzfrog wrote: 2a3s

Guys I think it's time to

What? This thread is not a degenerate waste of shit yet. Hold your bullshit.

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

Anyway, about mapping drama: are the memes legit and did Monstrata actually accuse Kroytz of copying his map? Now that would be funny if that were the case.

Depends on what your definition of accusation is. Is listing the similarities between two maps an accusation? Or is it the declaration to stop mapping due to the similarity between the two? If neither, then no accusations were made yet iirc.


Something different:

I really want the ranking criteria to allow one map per mapset regardless of difficulty. It will take the strain off spending so much time mapping an entire spread. However people would only map extremes in that case. So implement a system that requires to make a certain number of easy and normal difficulties for every harder difficulty ranked. The harder the difficulty of the map ranked, the more easy/normal difficulties you are required to make. No need to force yourself to map an easy difficulty for a song going at 300 bpm. You can pick a calm piano song instead to fulfill the requirement. This system would also allow to allow individual maps to be ranked into an existing mapset if the metadata matches (same mapper, same song, artist, tags, etc).

But ofc this is so different than what we are used to, mappers will loose their shit and laugh. In fact I believe I suggested it before and got laughed at.

abraker wrote: 6cx2d

Blitzfrog wrote: 2a3s

Guys I think it's time to

What? This thread is not a degenerate waste of shit yet. Hold your bullshit.

But the poster is

B1rd wrote: 4w393k

Anyway, about mapping drama: are the memes legit and did Monstrata actually accuse Kroytz of copying his map? Now that would be funny if that were the case.

fortunately
1. it is legit
2. monstrata did

now enjoy your popcorn

(I also happen to "map with 0019's style" stream, now it's time to literally change it...)

on topic, I guess the flaw of the current rule is the openness (is that a word) to new meta while not making another restriction and instead weaken the existing restriction (unless that wiggle, drama ahem).

(shit my grammar)

but that's it. C'est le jeu.

off topic, we should hold an event with the reward of "drama king/queen" banner (the one under profile's profile picture) anually

who cares about mapping drama when you can have OT drama

Endaris wrote: 6j5f7

who cares about mapping drama when you can have OT drama

why not both